Introduction:

While Kassapa and his community of monks were wandering through the kingdom of Kosala, one of the royal appanages of that country was ruled by Prince Payasi, who denied the value of virtue. One day, seeing Brahmin householders visiting Kassapa, Prince Payasi joined them to debate and cement his reputation as a freethinker. Addressing Kassapa, Payasi explains that there is no other world, no self-created beings (gods), and no consequences for good or bad deeds.
Wishing to turn Payasi's mind to sublime, beautiful phenomena, Kassapa asks the prince about the great, wondrous luminaries—the Sun and the Moon. Do they belong to the human world or another? Are they gods? Payasi, however, says that his observations of the earthly world lead him to disbelief, and Kassapa begins to question Payasi about how he arrived at his view.

Payasi's arguments and Kassapa's objections

Arguments about deceased relatives - good and bad

Payasi says he repeatedly visited dying relatives: some were of ill character and behavior, others virtuous. Payasi asked all the dying to come to him after death and tell him whether there was another world, whether the sinful relatives had gone to hell, and the pious to heaven. They all promised to come and tell him, but no one came, not even those who had always kept their promises in life.

Regarding relatives who have committed evil deeds, Kassapa counters this way: Imagine, Prince, that a man condemned to execution, to torture, asks the executioners, "Wait, I must leave for a moment at the request of a relative." Will the executioners allow him the time? After all, the lower realms are full of unfreedom and suffering, like a prison.

Regarding relatives reborn in good destinies, Kassapa counters this way: "Imagine, Prince, a man living in a pit of filth. This man is taken out of this pit, washed, anointed with fragrant oils, and dressed in fine clothes. Will such a man ever descend into the pit of filth again? After all, for beings in the worlds of the gods, the earthly world appears as nothing other than a stinking pit. Even those who, having overcome their disgust, would like to come will be unable to, for time flows differently in the abodes of the gods: in a single day of theirs, many, many years in the visible world can pass.

Moreover, Kassapa explains: what is visible with the Eye of Wisdom is invisible to bodily vision, which is why holy hermits, who see and have purified their minds, speak of other worlds and gods. They see and know them, unlike people immersed in the activity of the bodily senses.

The argument that hermits continue their earthly life without leaving it for the sake of heavenly peace

Prince Payasi, however, persists in his opinion. Why don't holy hermits, who see other worlds and gods, end their earthly existence in order to reach the heavenly worlds more quickly? On the contrary, they strive to maintain earthly life.

Kassapa counters with a parable: a Brahmin had two wives. He had a teenage son by his first wife, and his second wife was pregnant. It so happened that the Brahmin died suddenly. His son then demanded the entire inheritance. The second wife, however, asked him to wait until she gave birth: if she had a girl, the young Brahmin would receive everything; if she had a son, he would also receive a share of the inheritance. However, the young Brahmin insisted on receiving the entire inheritance immediately. So the woman went and ripped open her belly with a sword to check whether she had a girl or a boy. Both she and the fetus perished because of her foolish haste.

There is meaning in the lives of virtuous people: after all, as long as they live, their good deeds grow.

The argument about the executed thieves

Payasi remains stubborn. He describes the various methods of execution his executioners use on captured bandits. And no matter what the method, the prince was unable to see the jiva (living being) leave the body.

Kassapa counters: "It happens, Prince, that during your daytime slumber, you see beautiful groves and palaces, stroll through them, and enjoy yourselves, doesn't it? During this time, you, as you sleep, are guarded by hunchbacks, dwarfs, and young girls. But none of them see you wandering. This example shows that living people, seeing with ordinary eyes, do not see a living being leave the body."

An argument for the comparison of the weight of a living and dead body

Payasi says: a living body is lighter, but a dead body is heavier, harder to lift. If there were some being within the body, then with death the body should have become lighter, not heavier.

Kassapa's objection: if we take an iron ball and heat it to a glowing temperature, then, filled with heat and wind, it will be noticeably lighter, more pliable, and softer; but when it cools, we will feel it heavier, more inflexible, and harder. Similarly, a living being, like heat and wind, makes the body lighter.

The argument for the cessation of the activity of the senses

Payasi says: "Look, the deceased has the same eyes, ears, and other senses, but he neither sees nor hears. So, while there are sensory perceptions, there is life; without feelings or perceptions, there is no life. Therefore, there are no feelings or perceptions after death."

Kassapa counters with a parable: a trumpeter with a conch arrived in a village. Blowing the conch, he gathered all the people. But the people there were wild and undeveloped. They asked the trumpeter for the conch and placed it in a prominent place, saying to it, "Blow, Conch! Blow!" But without the trumpeter, the conch made no sound.

The argument about the absence of jiva in some part of the body

Payasi says: In no part or layer of the body—such as skin, muscles, bones, or marrow—can one see a living being. Therefore, I do not believe in another world, in self-created divine beings, or in the consequences of good and bad deeds.

Kassapa counters with a parable: a certain fire-worshipping hermit was raising a boy. One day, he left the child to watch over the fire, but the boy got carried away and the fire went out. The boy tried to rekindle the fire: he split a twig, then split it again, but the fire wouldn't start. The boy split each twig into pieces, and those pieces into others, but still the fire wouldn't start. The hermit returned and explained to the child that the fire isn't in the twigs or their parts; the fire engulfs them, and then they burn.

Payasi decides to stick to his views out of stubbornness

Payasi, although his arguments no longer satisfy him, says that everyone knows what his views are. How can he change them now? So he'll stick to them.

Kassapa persuades Payasi: be careful, Prince, that these views do not bring you long-term misery. He tells the story of two caravanners who encountered a red-eyed, wet, lotus-adorned yaksha in the desert, riding on a cart whose wheels were smeared with liquid mud. The yaksha told them that it had rained in the desert, there was water, and grass had grown plentifully. They should abandon their supplies of straw and water, not burden the oxen, and travel lightly. One of the caravanners listened to the yaksha and traveled lightly, while the other, not believing the yaksha, traveled slowly. The one who traveled quickly found no water at the first stop, nor at the second, nor at the third—until he and his entire caravan perished in the desert. The second caravanner, however, reached his destination safely.
Kassapa warns Payasi that one must reach the other world in the right way, having the necessary reserves of good deeds and understanding.

Kassapa's Parables on the Need to Reject Obsolete Views

Kassapa's Parable of the Man with Dung

Regarding the habit of clinging to old views, Kassapa tells the following story: A man found a pile of dry manure and decided to bring it to feed his pigs. He took the manure in his clothes and carried it. However, on the way, he was caught in the rain, and the manure became soaked and leaked. So the man never finished delivering the manure, and ended up covered in it.

Kassapa's Parable of the Gambler

Kassapa urges Payasi not to hold onto harmful views out of either pride or self-interest. He tells the story of two gamblers. One was a cheater, and when his throw was unsuccessful, he swallowed his dice. The second player, noticing this, asked him for the dice for a short time and smeared them with poison. Then he returned the dice. The game began, the cheater made an unsuccessful throw and secretly swallowed the dice, meeting his doom. Therefore, Kassapa advises Payasi not to be afraid to acknowledge his past mistakes. After all, those who hide their mistakes are like this gambler who swallowed the poisoned dice.

The Parable of the Hemp and the Linen

Since Payasi remains stubborn, Kassapa teaches him another parable, encouraging him to change his ways.
There were once two friends who found an abandoned village. They saw a pile of hemp there and gathered some of it. They went on and saw hemp thread. One exchanged the hemp for hemp thread (after all, hemp is needed for thread), but the other refused to change his load, saying he had it well packed on his shoulders and was used to it. They went on and found sackcloth… linen yarn… canvas… The first one kept exchanging his load for something more valuable, while the second clung to his familiar old load.
So they returned to their village—one with a valuable load of linen, the other with coarse hemp.

Payasi expresses admiration for Kassapa's parables

Payasi admired Kassapa's parables and said he would have agreed long ago, but wanted to hear more of the hermit's beautiful teachings. After this, he took refuge in the Triple Gem.

The future history of Payasi

Later, the sutta says, Payasi was negligent in accumulating virtue and was reborn among the lower spirits without having accumulated any merit.

Conclusion

The story of Kassapa and Payasi's conversation is a collection of arguments advanced by nihilists and the teachings offered in response to these arguments. However, it does not offer a definitive and convincing refutation of nihilistic views. After all, only the direct experience of Awakening makes the true true for a person and the false false. It is no coincidence that even after taking refuge, Payasi failed to understand the profound significance of accumulating virtue. Kassapa's explanations merely softened the prince's disposition but did not fundamentally change his state, because deep understanding can only arise from existing accumulations of virtue. We recommend comparing Payasi's story with that of King Ajasatta (see Samanññaphala Sutta, Digha Nikaya 2).

The main point of Kassapa's teachings boils down to two principles: 1) only by purifying the mind and curbing oneself can a person gain insight into the truths about the heavenly worlds, about the gods, about the consequences of good and bad deeds; 2) even without seeing the truth, a person can abandon obviously harmful ideas if he understands that he maintains them solely because of pride and inertia.